There is lots to discuss regarding suicide, so let's make a separate post for physician-assisted suicide. In the meantime, here's the link to a video about suicides on college campuses, which we'll watch in class on Thursday 17 March.
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2007/10/10/magazine/1194817120290/suicide-on-campus.html?scp=1&sq=suicide%20on%20campus&st=cse
This is concerning Ashley's comment on the effects that suicide may have on the family mentioned in the PAS topic, but I figured I would post it here as it more applies to suicide in general:
ReplyDeleteI have heard many people classify suicide as a selfish act as they don't consider the feelings of the family. But I have to question who really is being selfish. Is it the person who is in such misery that they are willing to kill themselves at the expense of the families emotions or is the family who is so concerned for their emotions that they are willing to let someone close to them suffer? I would have to argue that the idea of selfishness could be applicable to both groups.
If someone is so unhappy that they would rather not be alive then I believe that person cannot be classified as thinking clearly. Being selfish is probably an after thought to these individuals. I have dealt with a number of suicides from my high school and almost all of them have been drug related. Again, in individual with a drug habit is probably not thinking clearly either.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely agree with Scott. We often see with suicides that there is something clouding the mind, often depression or a variety of substance abuses. We can’t possibly hope to know their thoughts through this time but we can know that those who suffer from these impairments simply can’t think clearly. Their reasoning capacity is diminished. I shy away from labeling any suicides but I can surely say that if someone suffers from these things, which a good deal of suicide committers do, then their capacity for clear thought is diminished.
ReplyDeleteI do not understand how the family would be selfish because more often than not, the family does not know that their loved one is about to commit suicide or even know they are thinking about it. I have had 3 friends commit suicide over the years and talking to their families, they have had no idea that their child was in such misery. Also, a women at my mother's work had an argument with her daughter one night, the daughter went upstairs and ODed on medicine. In this case, the mother had gone upstairs not long after to apologize and found her daughter, and she did not perish. So, I believe that the family is not being selfish.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I am not even positive we can say the person commiting suicide is being selfish either because they are obviously not in the right state of mind. So, I do not think selfish should be said with suicide.
Obviously there are going to be different situations and those situations should be treated differently, but like I said, my comment was more in reference to PAS, in which the family would most likely know and the patient is most likely in their right mind.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I don't think you should classify all people who commit suicide as being in the wrong state of mind. While it may be true for many cases, it does not have to be true. In other words, blanket statements should be avoided.
I had a person very close to me, a friend from High School, admit recently that she considered suicide for a time in her life. When i asked her why, she said she couldn't really explain it, but offered me a few pages of her journal to read, in an attempt to understand. i asked her if it would be alright to share its contents with you all, and she agreed. Here are a few very telling statements from this time in her life:
ReplyDelete"I don't want anyone to know but I think the more I fake it, the worse I feel"
"I just want to know how it will all turn out. I see where I am, and I see where I want to be down the road, but its like the space between is so foggy and neverending. I just hate everything right now."
"If this is life, I don't want to live it anymore."
"After today, I just want to end it. I hurt so bad on the inside, I want to hurt on the outside to match it, so everyone can tell."
This is over a time of about 3 months, according to the dates listed on the top. Possibly because I wasn't around her frequently during this time because we attend different colleges, I had no idea. She didn't tell me until after she'd (luckily) found her way to a psychiatrist. It was scary for me to read those things about someone so close to me. She told me that her parents had no idea until she admitted to them that she had a problem.
So...while she had this terrible problem, a depression if you will, the people close to her were unaware. I fully believe that she was in an unhealthy state of mind, and yet she was able to behave normally around people. I do think that in order to commit suicide, you are in a different mindframe than that of a happy go lucky school girl or something of that nature. I was fortunate enough to be able to read her words and put myself in her situation for a few minutes. Its much darker...very bleak...while reading it, i could feel the desperation that she had been feeling, as well as the shame she felt for feeling desperate. I agree with JOHN that we should avoid "blanket statements"...and unless you've been in a situation, its hard to really comment on what it would be like. i was only given a small glimpse into what her life was like during this trying time. I think we should all remember this before we try to comment on another person's actions critically.
Suicide is a topic that I always feel uneasy to comment on and give my opinion. However, I must say that I do find it hard to label those who commit suicide as selfish individuals for one who are we to place judgment on another person situation and life. In being a psychology major I've learned that those who do commit suicide normally look at their death as beneficial to those around them. I also think that in labeling and placing judgment on those who have taken their life that we in a way play into a lot of the feelings and thoughts they feel that society has of them.
ReplyDeleteTo John's comment, I do believe that selfishness could be applicable to both the family and the suicide. I also think there are some cases where the selfishness could be greater on one part or the other. For instance, if someone had children and committed suicide.
ReplyDeleteI also want to comment that I don't think it is ok to label all suicides as selfish. Every situation is different and the reasons for someone committing suicide are very hard to understand for someone who isn't in the same mental state. I've had a similar experience with reading someone who is suicidal's journal (my sister) and it is very very hard to deal with the fact that someone you love feels that way. I noticed that alot of her thoughts were very introverted. She was extremely critical of herself. There have been two suicides on her dad's side of the family (we're half sisters) and I think that the depression she feels is partially due to a genetic disposition. People in this situation probably have to work alot harder to think positively than other people.
ReplyDeleteSuicide in general is a difficult thing to understand on a societal level because we as a community do not know the chemical makeup of an individual considering or carrying out suicide. We also do not know what societal pressures or responsibilities that these people feel are affecting their lives. Suicide is an ancient practice and there will never be a solution to it. Why? People do not disclose full information or allow individuals to help them. People can use walls to seem happy or to show individuals the side of their personality that they want to be seen, but when it becomes more personal, and an individual is struggling, we never really know. This is why suicide can be unexpected and fast. After this, the individuals who are affected afterwards are left to pick up the pieces and work to make their lives normal again, or as normal as they can be. Suicide is upsetting and tragic, but it is difficult to understand on a societal basis.
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ReplyDeleteI consider Suicide one of those black and white issues. Suicide is absolutely immoral when the person has the will, goal, and means to carry out the act. If someone is incompetent when they go through with the act they are not responsible because of the lack of mental faculties. The hole selfish debate does not really matter because the act is immoral. Do I think the person should be rejected to have a proper church burial. My answer would be no because that service can be used as a time for healing for the family and may help the future of that persons soul in the afterlife.
ReplyDeleteHello All,
ReplyDeleteWOW! These are some pretty serious opinions across the board. I am in agreement there should not be a blanket lable on all people who commit suicide. All cases are an indiviual basis and there are many factors involved that most people don't take into concideration.
I myself have been on this road, and I it's never something taken lightly by most of these people. As Rebecca pointed out from her friend's diary, it was over a course of time. I believe it's very rare that someone just wakes up one morning and for lack of anything better to do, says to themselves "Oh, I think I'll commit suicied today." and then follow through with it. Sometimes getting help isn't as easy as you might think it should be. No one wants to be labled crazy, because let's face it, that is the stigma of going to see a Psychiatrist in all most all parts of society. Then there is getting in a place for help; for the average person walking down the street insurance plays a huge role in getting help and if you are that much in need then go to the emergency room. Can you see where I am going with this? So, I am sorry Joel it's not black and white. For some people it is their only opition in their minds. Moral is a religious aspect that gets over looked by the time someone finds themselves with a gun, pills, an option to do what they feel is there only choice. Here are some satistics for you. Is it really so black and white for these children? Here is my source: http://www.mentalhealth.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml#children
Is suicide common among children and young people?
In 2007, suicide was the third leading cause of death for young people ages 15 to 24.1 Of every 100,000 young people in each age group, the following number died by suicide:1
Children ages 10 to 14 — 0.9 per 100,000
Adolescents ages 15 to 19 — 6.9 per 100,000
Young adults ages 20 to 24 — 12.7 per 100,000
As in the general population, young people were much more likely to use firearms, suffocation, and poisoning than other methods of suicide, overall. However, while adolescents and young adults were more likely to use firearms than suffocation, children were dramatically more likely to use suffocation.1
There were also gender differences in suicide among young people, as follows:
Nearly five times as many males as females ages 15 to 19 died by suicide.1
Just under six times as many males as females ages 20 to 24 died by suicide.1
Suicide is a topic that will never have a clear answer and to say that it is a black and white issue is not really examining the whole situation. There are many people who a lot of times due to their illness have become depressed and lost the will to fight, and their mental capacity has changed because of that sickness. I can not see what thoughts run through an individuals brain therefore i feel for me to say that someone has committed an immoral act is not my judgement to make. I also feel just like religion morality is a very personal concept, and can change due to the culture of which one was raised. Suicide is a topic that may never have a clear understanding.
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